Ep 06: Why Are Creatives So Fluffy?

Episodes
Written By Karen Larson

Co-Hosts Jamie Saunders, Justin Ahrens, Von Glitschka, and Karen Larson have a rough start to an incredibly vulnerable episode about the impact our emotions (or lack of emotions) have on creativity. Learn to work around your feelings and use them as your superpower in handling clients, bosses, or tough projects. Grab a drink, and have a listen.

ROUGH TRANSCRIPT:

EPISODE 5: Why are Creatives so Fluffy?

Jamie:

Yeah, okay. Hey guys. We're back for another episode of the creative shit show and curious. How’s everybody doing this afternoon?

Karen: 

Doing great

Vonster: 

Same here doing fine.

Justin:

Oh, man I am doing so good.

Jamie:

Awesome! WOW. This is rough.

Karen:

That sucked.

Justin:

Oh man, you know I What's that what are you talking about that sucked.

Vonster:

Ah, fuck.

Karen:

Ah I can edit that just how slow it was. It was just like oh.

Justin:

Well hey you know I think what's funny about just that beginning is just how different we are you know? um I think that's one of the things that makes it show really interesting and ah I always get made fun of at my house that I'm super emotional.

Vonster:

Yes, my wife and daughters make fun of me when I get very clamped watching a movie.

Justin:

Von, Do You do you think you're super emotional?

Karen:

Do you guys cry?

Jamie:

Um, yeah, Publix gets me every time.

Justin:

Dude I cry at fricking Geico commercials I'm a mess.

Vonster:

Yeah.

Karen:

Oh my God.

Justin:

Well let's what's talk. Let's talk about this from a business standpoint so Karen you've been on your own you know for a long time and Jamie you've you know, kind of taken a couple different paths recently? What's it like for you guys like how does emotions play into your work relationship?

Karen:

You know, so it's it's interesting because I kind of feel like this cold-hearted beep person and sometimes and I just you know. I'm very business or business minded business oriented. It's kind of like the job is work. The job is not It's a job and I don't get too emotional about um about it where. And I think I can speak for Jamie and she'll speak for herself but Jamie she's been on her own for a couple years now and she really takes things to heart a little bit. You know a lot more than I do and you know I kind of have to talk her down a little bit and say it's only work you know. Don't worry about it just make the revisions and we'll move on or whatever the process is but um I do think that creatives as a whole we all have you know. Emotion we deal with emotion differently than I want to say quote unquote normal um, normal employees do and I think that a lot of managers don't know how to deal with creatives because of that.

Justin:

Yeah, but I have I have a question though because I'm going to call I'm going to try to call it BS on that. Do you mean to tell me Karen like when you work something work on something really hard. You dump all of your energy and soul into it again. I'm being a little overly dramatic and and the client doesn't like it. You're able to not take that personally?

Jamie:

No.

Vonster:

Um, but.

Justin:

Yeah, Jamie's calling it.

Karen:

Um I take it and you okay.

Jamie:

Uh, if if you're speaking for me hey maybe we should role play if you're speaking for me I'll speak for you.

Justin:

Um, oh yeah, that's roleplay.

Vonster:

I like that idea.

Karen:

I don't I really don't man Jamie can speak for me because I could be but as a whole I don't think I take it all that personally I do get offended when the client is wrong.

Justin:

Ah, there it is te good part.

Karen:

Ok, there's are there's a difference some clients are just wrong. But I'm not but it's like I get offended and then I'm over it I really don't I think I am anyway I don't let it. You know fester I don't think I don't know Jamie what do you think? do I let it faster.

Jamie:

I Think it just depends on the day and this scenario you know I think we can I mean there are days where I'm handling everything beautifully and you know you could be having your own issues over there and then you know vice Versa I think you know. Part of the beauty of having a partner is you pick each other up when you fall and and I think when I was working alone. Ah I had no one to share my emotional outbursts with that makes any sense you know so I felt like they just kind of went into like an..

Karen:

Um, right.

Jamie:

echo chamber you know and then I would get myself all worked up but now I feel like I'm managing it a lot better because Karen will just be like who cares, you know or whatever just go rewrite it and like I said a couple episodes ago I think when I when I get the feedback even if it offends me and I go back and I look at the work I'm like oh. You know, maybe there's a point there. Maybe they did see something that I didn't see and I fix it and it gets better. You know, but.

Karen:

Right? Yeah I would yeah I would say that I get more irritated about the not the work. But the fact that something wasn't communicated to me to save me time.

Jamie:

Right.

Karen:

I get more offended and irritated about that than I do the process. Yeah than the work itself. 

Vonster:

Yep.

Jamie:

Right? The process that makes sense I mean rather than you know I don't want this to turn into some sort of like oh let's all complain about you know.

Justin:

Yeah, but then you.

Jamie:

The way you know the way things go sometimes with clients because we've done that you know in the past. So to me, it's It's like the conversation is why? why do? why? do you think creatives are so fluffy. Why why you know why? do you think that that happens.

Karen:

Right.Well I think the question is why do creatives feel the need to please.

Jamie:

Right? That's fair.

Vonster:

So just just to clarify. That's what you mean by fluffy emotions. Basically yep yep, okay.

Justin:

Oh well I I.

Jamie:

Um, yep, and the need to have validation that you know.

Justin:

Yeah, well I think I think for me Vaughn I don't know what you think about this but we're in an emotional business and I know Karen you may disagree with me here a little bit but.

Karen:

Oceans but also that need to please.

Justin:

Think about what we do whether you're writing or you know doing any sort of you know, ideation or creative. You know that's coming from somewhere magical inside of us and you know one of the things I I try to share with students and even some of my younger designers that come work for us is.

Karen:

Their heart.

Justin:

You're going to do 3 directions for a client and think about it twothirds of what you're going to present is going to be not approved right? Sometimes all three won't and that I think there is a level of an emotional toll.

Vonster:

Yeah, yeah.

Justin:

You know and depending on where you are in your career or how much time you put into it or how much careing to your point you felt your decision was right I think there is a I think there is a um you know impact on you over time and I don't know that's kind of how I felt about it I don't what do you think

Vonster:

Well I like Karen said sometimes clients are just wrong other times on a project. There will be revisions and I don't necessarily think they're always needed but it's not that. They're doing anything wrong. So those I don't have so much problem with um, it's when like they tend to change the goal post. Um the the information they provided up front sent me in one direction and then all of a sudden they're kind of contradicting themselves. Ah, with new input they have and I'm going. Well why wasn't this in the brief that I had you fill out that type of thing and and then that's when things tend to go off the rails. 

So um I yeah I think your point about most of the work we create as designers um either is not going to be used or nobody is ever going to seen I always thought a great book would be ah designs never used or whatever and just showcased artwork that just was just happened not to align with what a client wanted to do.

Justin:

Um, by the way that title has just been copyrighted by the creative shit show. Please Continue Von.

Vonster:

But um, well when when I spoke down ah at ah the Adobe workshop last week um somebody asked me a question about. Ah. You know how many design directions I usually show on a logo project and I made the comment like you did that you know over the years I've created more design than ever got used and sometimes I like the ones that didn't get used more in the ones they chose.

And I've chosen to show that on my site instead of what they actually went with because I think it reflected better on the potential. What I can do not the limited vision of a client might choose and it's like I tend to call it. Um. Ah, creative renewable energy where you go back into your archives and you can grab ideas and I do this for ah for um, name exploration I save name explorations I've done in the past and I. If a client comes up and it might fit with them I'll go back and I'll kind of harvest from that. So I do that all the time. Um in different projects. So I think that's that's actually it's a good creative habit is what I call it.

Karen:

Um, I actually think that it's a lot harder on the writer side than it is on the creative side because from my experience clients seem to think that they can write. So has Jamie's laughing and they seem to think that they can you know they love the ideas that were given to them. But what about this tweak and I think that there's a lot more thought process and strategy. That goes into the writing or the overall concept development and I know I've said this before but I think that you know once you if you have that down to design. Can follow. But and that's what's so wonderful in working in a partnership with a writer but you know I think it's a lot easier for for clients to tear down writing. But for writers you know it's It's tough because those words sometimes are very few words and 1 little change can really screw it all up and I've I've seen it happen time and time and time and time again where with design most ah, most.

Vonster:

Yeah.

Karen:

Most clients can't do the design and they while they you know they might make I hate to say it but really stupid comments about design or ignorant comments about design. You can some hopefully you can walk them through it and that's what's so important for you know designers to build their communication skills if you have really great communication Skills. You can walk through it and explain to a client why you've done something. Like I Just recently have I am working on a website and this client's looking at he's like why are there so many different colors and font sizes and blah blah. But and I'm like you know want to blow my head off so and then I explained to and he's a very corporate type of a client. An older man and I explained to him. It's a visual hierarchy and blah blah blah Blah blah. But as soon as I explained it to him he he didn't have an issue with it anymore. So you know.

Justin:

Yeah, But what about what? What about the emotional side of that though you know, kind of getting back to that You know so let's say don't you feel that part of creatives. Um sort of maturing in their profession is to also figure out a way to have you know. In emotional you know for lack of better terms. Um, you know wall or ability to you know, sort of reflow their emotions so they don't let that get the better of themselves because I know when I started out with the young I'll be honest I when I get feedback I would say stuff like gosh. The client is. You know, absolute Idiot like do they not know what good design is um, right.

Karen: Yeah, but they don’t write and they don't and they don't know what good design is so I think right in most cases they don't know what good design is I truly believe that. So.

Jamie:

Well  they see things differently than you do. So you see things differently.

Karen:

I think that they have an opinion but they don't understand the big picture of a lot of times unless maybe a marketing person and stuff like that. But I think if you um I think you can manage your emotions from a situation by being able to control the situation by being able to defend in a effective way and and believe me I know that that is super. You know. For example, Justin I'm thinking of you know your your employees or. Employees of any kind junior designers that don't have a voice then? What do you do? ah.

Justin:

Yeah I think I think for for me over the years Karen I think you said something that really resonates with me I think over the years I've realized that part of my role as a creative is to educate my client on why we did what we did and how it solves the challenge that has been. Um, put in front of us and I will tell you that the vast majority of time I do not get emotional about that anymore. I can actually be presenting and see one of my creatives on the call and see their their sort of hearts slowly melting because they're so sad about what they're being said and I'm making a note to myself saying. Okay I need to make sure I'm follow up. You know with Xyz person I think the only time I really lose it and this doesn't happen a lot because I think we do a pretty good job picking the right clients but I would say once a year you'll have a client and I'm trying to go into this meeting with a good attitude you know or.

Karen:

Yeah, that makes all that makes a difference.

Justin:

This conversation that is just super rude, right? and or doesn't doesn't know how to give feedback and you know right away I'm sitting here defending my my team or we're not even talking about the solution and I can tell that I'm getting upset and I'm trying to calm myself down because it's business. But also it's. I believe that you know we should conduct business respectfully and so for me from an emotional kind of to use Jamie's term you know the fluffy side of things I think that's where I still will get flustered and it takes a lot to get me there but that is the. Point where I'm just like listen you're going to disrespect us because for whatever reason you're talking to us that way. How is that at all positive or getting us to a solution. You're just kind of being a jerk right? So those are my biggest areas of of emotional.

Vonster:

Yeah, um, what Karen said about ah responding to you know? Obviously it sound like a corporate suit type client and he was probably looking at the interface or the design aesthetic and like some clients. They just think oh they're just being artsy and they don't put any distinc rtationale for why you did something? Well what you did is you explained your rationale and why you made the decisions you made and as soon as they hear that I think it it makes them realize that that you're paying attention to. Not just doing something that looks pretty. You have a reason for why you're doing it and I think that's a big part of it. Um, what Justin said about going into a meeting. Um I had a client earlier this year who was that way they couldn't really define what they wanted.

And I was just shooting in the dark on a bunch of different directions and um and then he decided to basically it was nothing to help figure out. Okay, what will work or where should we go. It was more just to kind of ah take a shot at like. My creative work in in reference it as you know? Well this looks like clip art type stuff which kind of piss me off and um, yeah, it's a it's at that point that if a client's going to be willing to do that. Then. Ah, probably don't really want to work with them Anymore. So.

Karen:

Right.

Jamie:

But for workable clients you know I feel like I'm trying to get more introspective and and trying to like to your point Von you know manage the situation so that it turns out.

A little better than it might have in the past. Um you know getting feedback like I don't like this you know isn't very helpful. It's not going to help me what do you? So I'm learning now when I send something over I never send it without rationale here's where I was coming from here's why I did this.

Vonster:

Yeah, yeah.

Jamie:

I'll reference something that they said from a conversation hey I heard you when you said such and such and so I tried to incorporate that here. Um getting better also about not turning in finished drafts of things. So if I'm writing something and I start feeling insecure about it and it's not it.

Vonster:

That's smart.

Jamie:

If I'm having trouble formulating the thought it's probably because I didn't ask enough questions or there wasn't enough conversation. So I'll actually just send over what I have sometimes and I'll be like here's what I'm thinking is this what you were talking about you know and then that gives them before I waste all this time because it can take me you know. 5 hours to write you know a thousand word. You know, essay or blog post or something you know I just want to get ahead of it. So I'm trying to get ahead of it and Karen said something a couple of episodes ago about just not coming with a finished solution I think that's so. Important and I didn't realize how important it was until after she said it and I was like oh that is what I'm doing and the feedback is getting better right? because then it gives the client the chance to refute oh I didn't mean that when I said that here's the answer to your question and then we have a better dialogue. The work is better. They're happier.

Clients like collaborating so they enjoy giving feedback and input and when you come to them with a finished solution and I sat in that chair you guys know and they would bring me something and it's so off base and you're just like I don't know how to discuss this I don't know what to say and it's and it's like well here it is and you're like what is it because.

Karen

Right? Well and when client and when you're collaborating. There is a lot less chance that you are going to come to them with something that they're not going to be happy with right.

Vonster:

Woah what.

Jamie:

Exactly exactly and I used to think I had to bring them I would think oh I had to bring them something finished and now I realize that's not the way It's just so much better.

Vonster:

Um I like your the fact that you kind of affirm back to the client that something that they had mentioned or commented on was the genesis for why you moved in a certain direction I think is.

Justin:

Um, yeah.

Vonster:

That's really good I remember years ago Creative Director I work with told me that even if if he really wanted them to to buy into an idea and kind of buy the vision of where he had He would give all attribution to the client whether or not they they really did it or not. And I go well is that kind of manipulating he goes. Well yeah, but it works you know and he he yeah I was amazed at how many times he goes you know in a previous conversations. We had you said this. And they might have said that but they meant nothing about how he interpreted but they didn't want to correct him and say well you know if if you think it works good and you're giving me credit for it then they're more susceptible to to considering it.

Jamie:

So now I don't make up stuff but I do ah take copious notes Karen knows during meetings I write down very weird and specific things that people say during meetings because they trigger ideas.

Vonster:

Yeah, yeah, well I know.

Jamie:

Um, and we've gotten to the point where we record a lot of client calls because um, not because I want to throw it back in their face but because I want to go back and listen to it and and make sure that I understood the conversation because in real time you're listening. But then when you go back and you listen to it again. You're paying attention.

Karen: Right? And a lot of what we do is really technical but 1 of the things that I would like to talk about is you know because we all have direct communication with clients so we can avoid because of that.

Vonster:

Yeah, exactly yeah.

Jamie:

So yeah.

Karen:

We can control and avoid or manage is a better probably word our emotions based on how we can control the clients with conversation. But how do younger. Designers that don't have and creatives writers Sorry how can younger creator creatives communicate. Okay I'm going to back up. Edit it How can younger creatives. Manage this situation you know because they're just sitting at their desks being told what to do and getting crushed because somebody delivering the project to a client didn't defend it in a certain way or it wasn't you know how does that? How do we. Help younger creatives through that and.

Vonster:

I think the thing that helped me the most when I was younger um, was just thinking. Okay I can try to align with what I think might be the expectations of like my art director. Whatever my boss or I could just take the information they gave me and and create something I think would work and I also like. And I'd rather do that instead now if they come back and they want to change this or that you know I can't control that but I can control what I show them So I'm always even though a client has certain. You know I try to figure out in a general sense where they want to go what they want to do who their target audience is all all the standard stuff. But then um, if I think there's a slightly better way of communicating that and it might go a little out of field from what they so. They stated upfront I'll still at least show them a direction that that goes that way.

Karen:

But did you educate your um account person about how to present it or why you did what you did so that they could defend it.

Vonster:

Well my boss at a previous job I had here in Oregon he was the one that always presented it. We never really played a part in that but he is pretty good at at at doing that. Although at times I um he he wouldn't. Like I don't know pitch it the way I would have you know but nowadays like I'm I'm rebranding a ah radio network now and I have to talk to their board of directors for the last 2 conversations we've had and um, they've been really.

I mean as far as boards and committees go they've been really easy to work with but it's interesting because you know they they couldn't put their finger on why they didn't like this one design for one of the stations and um, but in the mix of just talking about I Go Well just explain to me like. Like what you're thinking like what? what? What do you think would work even if you have no idea visually just encapsulate it in words.

Karen:

But a lot of times the designers and we're going back to the younger designers or creative writers. They don't get that direct feedback from clients I mean Justin what do you think?

Vonster:

Yeah, that's that's the hard part.

Justin:

Well, and yeah, well I think I think it's really important then there's a great question I think it's important to maybe state some things that I think are true and you guys can share with me if you believe it or not you know going back to what we were talking about earlier. I Think it's really hard in my opinion to separate our creativity from emotions I feel like our emotions fuel our our creativity or dampen it right? They have an impact on it. So if that's true then I think it's really important also for designers to realize that.

Jamie:

Absolutely.

Justin:

I mean think about when even now today I still get super excited but think about like your first great piece you wrote or you designed is you know and maybe it was terrible right? because it your it was your first or your early work and so you're putting your you know your energy into it and your passion into it and then what happens right? You get feedback that it's not awesome. And it's it's crushing and so I think what's happening simultaneously. It's really unique in this industry is that you are needing to navigate your emotions on how to take this input and trying to try not to judge yourself on it because it's hard not to do right? because you're judged on your output. So if you're constantly not getting stuff approved I remember there is a streak here. 

1 of our creatives. He was. He was so good I think it's when we did I think's the logo was a book covers I can't remember but there was a streak where I think there was like 8 or 9 projects in a row. He was one of the 2 designers on it and his direction wasn't picked and. We kind of joked about it not because we thought it was funny but to try to lighten the mood and he finally came to me and said hey am I any good and this guy was one of our best creatives he just he just had a bad run in this particular type of work and what I loved about his work is.

Karen:

Yeah, that's tough.

Jamie:

It is.

Vonster:

Yeah.

Justin:

He was often the 1 pushing the look right? So you know when we do presentations we usually will do something that's probably in the space. The client is expecting hopefully pushing them beyond that and then it kind of goes out from there and oftentimes we hope for the middle one or the one that's.

Jamie:

Smart.

Justin:

Think he's even most creative to be chosen, but sometimes it's not and he ended to typically was on the outside of it and I was like listen just give it time your work is Phenomenal. We're going to get there and so I spent more time talking to him So if creatives don't have an art director or a mentor. Work to help them navigate that that would be really hard emotionally because in my opinion, What's happening is you're constantly getting what you feel and again this depends on how you're built. You know some people will look at that and say Wow This is really constructive Criticism Great I'll take this and I'll continue to evolve and I'll get better and that I think is the right approach as much as you can.

Vonster:

Into that cliff.

Justin:

Where others are just like Wow Why is everything I do not good. What does it say about me I don't think that's a conscious connection. They put together. But I think it's there and I still have it Sometimes you know when we'll do something and I'm just like gosh man that was really good. How did that not get chosen.

Now I'm at the age now where I realize it's not that's not validating me right as a person but it's taken years to get there. So I think for younger creatives I think it's really important to as much as possible to go into it and realize that von what you said earlier. Is kind of a depressing statement but it's true and and it's just part of the world is. We're going to create more things that are going to get denied or not used than those things that actually get used.

Vonster:

Yeah, yeah.

Karen:

Well, that's why it's so important to have those personal projects. Honestly.

Jamie:

So I have a little bit of a different comment about the situation just based on having been in the corporate office and you were asking. You know as a I don't know lower level employee is the right way to say it. But you know you're not maybe in that management position yet.

Vonster:

Both.

Jamie:

And so you're being you know told what to do or how to do things I think first of all everybody needs to go pick up. Ah Sam Harrison's book. It's called idea selling and um Sam is a very good friend of mine. He's amazing and I had the pleasure of sitting down with him and having coffee.

Vonster:

Good book.

Jamie:

Long time ago at the Howe conference and we were discussing just a situation I was having at work. Nothing Big. You know, but it was definitely I wanted more I wanted to get promoted I wanted to move forward and he said have you ever tried managing your bosses that I was like what. You know he said you have a lot of power actually sitting in your position to be able to manage your bosses the same way you might manage a client and they don't even know you're doing it right? So It's so Cool. It's stuck with me.

Jamie:

I use it all the time when I am doing my mentoring with scat and talking to my son you know here in real life. But oh gosh I Know you're going to ask the hard question. Um, well the same thing right? So if you're going to be turning in work.

Vonster:

Give us an example.

Jamie:

If you’re working on a presentation or you're putting something together that you know you're not going to be presenting for yourself. So you're giving it to your your manager comes to you and says okay I need you to fill out slide 3 7 and nine of this presentation and then we're going to take it and we're going to go do a customer presentation with it and so you. First of all, you got to read everybody else's notes and what everybody else has said and then you got to go in and do you know the work and write the slides and then you want to you want to go and edit everybody else's work because now your work doesn't match or you might feel. It's superior to some of the things that you find in that presentation. So you you know? but I think. When you turn in the presentation or you turn in the piece of work. Whatever it is design or writing or whatever put the justification behind it. You know I noticed everybody else was doing this and so I followed suit. However I feel like we could change direction here's an idea. You know here's something I thought of while I was reading through it or you know this this client really is focused on Xyz and we don't even mention that and the presentation is that on purpose you know and you're showing your value. In a really super subtle way you know and they're like wow she notices something every time and now it can be a negative because then you end up being the presentation editor or the you know the person who everybody goes oh Jamie will do it or you know just send it over to her. What do they say give it to the busiest person you know.

Vonster:

Ah. Yeah I can can I kind shared just 1 thing really quick. Um and pardon me I'm gonna use a baseball metaphor. But I think it applies really well is that every every creative person who creates design or maybe it's even illustration. Um, they have a design batting average meaning not everything they're going to work on. It might just be It might get the project done mount the door but they'll never show it to anybody. Um, or they might fail they they they can't ah you know their ideas aren't accepted like Justin was talking about. But yeah, you think of some of the players in baseball like ah. Like Mike Trout one of the best players in baseball but yet he has batting ah slumps where he's not batting very well and in baseball you only have to get 3 out of 10 at bat a hit 3 times out of 10 at bats to be considered an all-star. But in design. It's like you're kind of expected to play at that high level one ah hundred percent the time but that's not the reality. Yeah.

Jamie:

Execute execute execute. You know it does wear on you? yeah.

Karen:

That's great. Yeah.

Justin:

Yeah I think that's good. Yeah, one of the things I want to throw out to you. This is one of those challenges I've had over the years as a manager is when I encourage my team to be like hey sell me on this idea. You know we'll do sketches or whatever else and I'll say and I'll look at hey I like this one this one this one and I and then I I always ask what are the ones that you like and you know a lot of times they were similar but sometimes though they'll have a certain direction I was like okay. Don't see that working but sell me on it like tell me what you see help me see that and I love that process because I get to learn how they think and and a lot of times they talk me into it because it's a great idea and I'm just not seeing it but have you been in a situation where you've. You've fought hard for an idea and because you really believe in it and you know it just didn't happen and you're walking away like how do you process that I'm thinking you think about your younger self or even now I mean I think we all handle a little differently now because we've been around the block a few times but. You know what happens when you stand up for an a you. You really believe in and it still gets you know denied.

Jamie:

I Think when there's consensus that your idea doesn't catch on you know for me I just back away I mean it's just to me. It's like I used to get hot about it and fight for every you know. Idea Oh This would be the next hottest thing this is going to be what everybody's doing next you know and everybody's like I don't buy it. You know, but I think the more the more you begin to I don't want to say like stop having ideas because that's not what I'm trying to say but the more you begin to read the room. And see what other people are thinking and and know to pick your battles I think is probably the best way to say it I don't every idea isn't worth fighting for and a lot of times when you walk away from that meeting and you realize that maybe it wasn't all that you know when you see the finished product of what everybody else came up with together. I Don't know I think I've just learned to walk away peacefully and be okay with it. You know? yeah where you just don't feel like you have to keep like you know everyone in here so stupid but me you know I mean when I was young. That's thought you have you know why can't they see it. Why don't they get it. You know.

Vonster:

That's true.

Karen:

Rather than kicking and screaming.

Vonster:

Well I think when you're you're younger you like Savannah when she started working with me. She wasn't used dart direction. She just Drew whatever she wanted and and now it's like.

Vonster:

You know all art director at times I'll go no that just doesn't look right? she goes why it looks fine I Go no, it could look better and and I'll try to explain it to her and because she works on her ipad this other thing like. I'm trying to slap a piece of vellum on top for Ipad and draw on the vellum because I'm used to make an edits like in analog and then she gets irritated and I go yes. So now she makes a layer for me in her app. Yeah.

Jamie:

With an eraser right.

Karen:

That I I was just going to say that's what you need to do.

Vonster:

And that's what and I drawn red on top of it and show her but she she gets it now she she's she doesn't fight as much as she did early on and now she gives it right back. She'll art direct me on stuff and go now you don't want to do it that way and I go what What's wrong with that. You know and I'm doing the same thing she was doing and that that was yeah that I wasn't you know I had been working on my own for 15 years when she came on and I wasn't used to you know, having something somebody on this side art direct me other in myself.

Jamie:

You got a whole family dynamic too. Wow That's like you know, father daughter thing.

Vonster:

You know? so but she tends to be right? So I listen to it.

Justin:

Do you want us to keep that part in the show I mean now she's gonna hear that.

Vonster:

Sure why not? That's that's the reality. Yeah.

Jamie:

It's recorded so it's there forever.

Karen:

So I off the top of my head and I almost want to ask Justin what the question was again, but off the top of my head I can't. I can't think of a time when there was when I walked away or when I you know when something happened because of the work per se was usually a much bigger. Um, you know, just not I mean sometimes you just don't work well with people and it just doesn't click. Um, but I guess rather than so I can't really answer the question.

Vonster:

Yep.

Karen:

But I can say that I think you learn by your mistake I know you learn by your mistakes. Everything is a learning experience. So I'd much rather if I care about the person. That I'm working with I'd much rather go back to them and say hey what was it that wasn't working you know what? Why didn't this work or you know if I felt like it was a valuable enough conversation. But. In the long run I guess as we're closing out this conversation. It's really about finding mentors in your business. Um I have I've learned from even though I've been self-employed and on my own forever and I haven't had. Bosses quote unquote as mentors I've had older professionals as mentors I've had conference speakers that I have met and had relationships with for years and. You know, kind of learned and felt so it's just a constant learning of what you can bring to the table as a designer and and I know I've said this before but you know the design is just part of it and. It's the it's the all the strategy and thought process and understanding the client that is going to help you avoid those emotions I mean I guess for me, it's about avoiding those emotions so I do everything I can. To you know, avoid them because believe me in the past I had a couple clients and now as we're talking about it I guess I've blacked them out but I remember being called by this, you know, even as a so as a self-employed person being called and at Nine o'clock at night Karen but. And I'd get off the phone I'd be like oh my god blue and it's like and then I still worked with this woman for 10 years a long time ago man and I get I have walked it. Ah I have learned.

Justin:

Wait Did you just admit, did you need to admit to you having emotions. That's awesome.

Jamie:

Um I was about to say it.

Vonster:

Ah.

Karen:

Number one I have learned from my lessons and number two I have blocked them out and I know who to work with and who not to work with.

Jamie:

Yeah, but but Karen would like to have you believe that she's like cold or like she's get you know, but she has an ooey gooey center and I feel like it's my job to bring that out of her I care I get  like really happy when she's super happy and I get sad when she's sad but I I I don't know maybe I make Karen like feel things you know and there days when she's like don't text don't text me

Karen:

Um, that's a slippery slope. What is that? what is that vonster a new get something new. Get Andy I like it but with a 1 but with a rum.

Vonster:

Ah, her new nickname is new nuget. Yeah, that's your new nickname nuget.

Justin:

Um, new get you know I think guarantee. Ah.

Jamie:

She does She is.

Karen:

Ah, Rum Center Rum Nuget Center roo.

Vonster:

There you go. So yeah.

Jamie: 

She's like those strawberry candies that your grandma had you know that are like crunchy on the outside and they have some some kind of jelly something on the inside. That's everybody knows the candy I'm talking about too.

Karen:

Yeah, oh yeah, and it would like burst in your mouth. Um.

Justin:

I was thinking about the gum remember the Jewels the gum that you it was yeah yeah in a yeah, wonderful if we mean gross isn't wonderful. Then? yeah.

Jamie:

Oh bursting your? ah so gross.

Vonster:

Oh I forgot about those that tasted that always tasted like toothpaste on the inside. Yeah oh Zots were good I like those.

Jamie:

It. It's so gross and then  lasts like 5 seconds and you're like gross, you know it's enough. Oh.

Karen:

What about Zots are not ZOTs were good. They like exploded in your mouth right? I.

Justin:

Um, let's go. Let's go. Yeah.

Vonster:

Yeah, fruit striped gum was good for about 30 seconds and then the flavor went away. But.

Jamie:

Yes, so like it's.

Karen:

Okay, Justin what is what is your thought in closing.

Jamie:

What kind of candy are you Ah, it's another episode.

Justin:

Ah I'm no comment. Um, yeah I Think what this episode reminds me of is that what we do is in my opinion What we do is highly emotional and I think that there's ah, there's a. You know a good side to that and a challenging side to that the good side to that is that if you're able to realize that you're in a you're in a creative business right? and that creative and business is both separate and together and what I mean by that is you're gonna be doing creative solutions for business. You're going to put a lot of emotion and time and effort and passion into it. But you also have to understand that it's a business and that some of those things are not going to be liked or accepted or you know taken seriously or whatever you know the results are and that's okay. Does not define you. But what you the sooner you can learn how to navigate that and you know put the right information in the right spaces so you can continue to have that solution then I think you know you are well on your way to be able to have a ah healthy creative career and by the way I'm not advocating to let.

Jamie:

No.

Justin:

Assholes run all over you I'm not saying that I'm saying that in in a normal situation. Um, you know to von I've had you know tons of conversations with van where he showed me things that I think are amazing and the client didn't accept it and you know that still flummoxes me but this is part of our business.

Vonster:

Yep.

Justin:

And so the sooner we can understand that I think the better will be.

Karen:

Well, it's business.

Jamie:

I love this conversation.

Vonster:

It makes for great horror stories later on though. So I always look forward to that at least but that's actually a good title.

Jamie:

Concepts from the crypt. That's the name of your book like you I've been thinking about it for 45 minutes

Karen:

Yes I love that Jamie.

Justin:

Hold on. Let me say that again that title is copyrighted by the creative shit show I'll be the I'll be the I'll be the legal department for our show.

Jamie:

Concepts from the Crypt ™. I'll write your intro copy.

Karen:

I Love it. Okay, we're good.

Justin:

All right von any perfect thoughts there.

Vonster:

Oh no, that was my closing thought that's it Chow bella.

Justin:

Okay.

Jamie:

I'm out.

Justin:

Well hey this has been great team to talk about how we're all a little fluffy even Karen and.

Karen:

I'm more of a that I decided that is my that's my spirit candy and I'm good with that. Oh okay, what are you Jamie? 

Vonster:

Ah, your spirit candy.

Justin:

Okay, I'm a nerds I'm a nerd's rope I'm a nerds rope.

Jamie:

I'm a Tootsie roll

Karen:

I KNEW IT! Um, that's what I would have said um, okay von ah I love it. Ah.

Jamie:

Ah, totally.

Vonster:

Good and plenty.

Justin:

Von you have to you have to be a Reese's peanut butter kale what need that's so good.

Jamie:

Ah, you are good-n-plenty. Definitely. But in the comments. Ah what candy you are listeners. We want to hear what kind of candy you are.

Karen: 

That's a golden shit show moment. So thanks, everyone.

Justin:

There you go.

Jamie:

Thanks guys.

Vonster:

Bye.


Karen Larson
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